Caephilly Club Hangover Trial

I’d got back to Wales on the Saturday afternoon, so some stirring of trials interest meant I found myself extracting the TY 250 from behind the kitchen [[Realised when writing this, that I’d not put the TY250 on the bike project list, even though it’s my current (and only) trials bike, will rectify this at somepoint]].

Quick splash of petrol and a couple of kicks and ready to go, 5 months after the last use on the Ivor Morkett back in July [[Something else I’ve not written up]]. I did a quick on the chain tensioner which needs to be fixed and attempted to straighten the foot rests, but thats something I’ll do in the workshop during the week.

Best view of the day

Had to defrost the van to open the doors, and a nice -4 C in Bwlch in the mist made for a fairly chilly start (but this is what trials is all about, right?). Steady progress across of the Pen y Fan Leisure Park, with a nice view from Llangynidyr mountain on the way over.

Mark and Terry on arrival

Terry (on his Bantam) and Mark (Montesa 348) had bravely (foolishly) decided to ride up from Tredegar, which then involved some thawing out of hands on arrival. With the murk all around, it was good to see the Caerphilly club rightly getting on with it and with 35 entries and enough observers it was good to see things underway promptly.


The sections were laid on out the banks below the caravan park and in the woods further down. With the twinshocks all doing the easier route, they were a fair test and with the exception of Section 7, all were cleanable, even by me.

I infact managed a 1 on Section 7 on the first lap, something that none of the group managed on the other 3 laps; it was a ‘3’ section, involving a tight turn and a loose muddy climb after.

Terry’s nemesis(es) were Sections 2 and 3, both of which involved climbs and tight turns before dropping back down. Maybe it was because the Bantam’s brake was on the downhill side, but I also managed to screw them up a couple of times, including a 5 my riding into a tree on Section 3 on the last lap.


All in all, a good enjoyable trial and nice to get out on the Yamaha again; it needs a refurb and the top-end rattle is getting worse, but it still rides very well. Could do with a gear box oil change also.


What’s good about trials is that you do it all year (even when it’s really cold and also wet) and it is never too serious (well classic trials anyway). Event’s tend to happen whatever, because they are less dependent on large entries. Despite stupid money price increases on twinshock trials bikes recently, it’s still a good sport to get into.

Ystradfellte memories, if you can pronounce it.

Recently spoken to Matt, a local builder, after he’d been out practicing on his trials bike and I’d mentioned that as well as the motocross bikes, I did have a Yamaha TY250 kicking around in the garage as well.

Anyway, after shifting the dinghy across the wall on Saturday morning, Matt came by to give us a hand and mentioned he was planning to go to the Dulais Valley trial at Ystradfellte that afternoon. It’s one of West South Wales centre’s B grade (ie easy) trails which they run on a Saturday afternoon. Anyway decided to stop trimming the hedge and go along as well as it was a nice afternoon.

Going to Ystradfellte brings back memories, both of digging in caves on the common and also attending I think what was probably my first motorcycle trial there circa 2002-03, on the Gas Gas I’d recently acquired. I headed over there on my own, with the bike on the back of the car and bumped my way up the rough track to the common. What I remember was a fairly interesting trail, with some easy bits and some hard bits and a long lap over the limestone escarpment. I do remember getting stuck in the muddy bottom of a shakehole at one point. However, it was a good trial and it got me into the sport.

As for caving on Ystradfellte common, this goes back even further, back to the 80’s and 90’s, including some dowsing and digging walks and trips with the late Clive Jones and entourage, looking down so interesting rifts and shafts. I do remember a 30ft climb down (with ladder) into a fairly large passage, but it was a spot that Jace Tyler (along with Ieuan) failed to find a couple of years ago, after another walk round during SWCC’s digging week.

Anyway, back to the trial and 3 routes on offer; dead easy, easy and relatively easy. Matt and I went for the middle route and was about right for Matt, who only dropped 23 with only one 5, which is a good way to get into trials. Nothing too hard. Sections 2 and 6 were the mark takers on the day, with the former having a difficult couple of turns near the exit over rocks. Section 6 degraded through the day and taking a line out to the right avoided an ever deepening groove.

I dropped 12, with 5 of those coming on the 3rd lap in Section 6, which I’d continued to use the middle line through the section, oh well. Should potentially have ridden the harder route, but no complaints and was a good introduction for Matt who hopefully will now do some more trials.

Back in Bwlch I noticed the bolt from the brake arm to brake plate was missing, hence no rear brake, which to be honest I didn’t need. The Tredegar boys went over to Rhondda on Sunday (another infamous venue in my early trials career, with an interesting hill climb), but decided to get some jobs done around the house. Nice to be back on the trials bike though.

No motocross, time for trials ?

With both of the motocross events I’d planned to go to this year canceled, rather than heading to Domen Hill and Border Classic, thought it was time for trial. Herefordshire Classic Club came up trumps and Saffron and I headed over on a Sunday morning

Mark and Section 6+7

Saffron was up for some observing, so that reduced my entry fee significantly. Off to the first section (for us), the long double subber on the far side of the woods. Needless to say, two 5’s to start to the day, due to me leaving the choke on …duh. In the grander scheme of things it didn’t matter too much as I (along with others) dropped a lot of marks.

It wasn’t going to my section this, as I came off in the same place, twice, with the first dive a dramatic one done the slope. Although a late start to gymnastics (ie that day), my exit role did get some good marks from the watching throng, along with a few laughs.

Terry and the Bantam

The long section 8 by the waterfall wasn’t easy and though I could clean it to the last corner, I’d come unstuck here, best effort was a 1.

Section 9 was the most straightforward of the day, despite an awkward hop across a boulder at the end and only dropping 1 here over four laps was good.

Bowley Court's famous waterfall

Andy Morgan observed section 10, up the gully where the rainfall in the winter has exposed the rocks at the top more than I remember. A couple of sly characters tackled this from the side (Rob Cobley, you know it was you), but which ever approach, Mark did manage the dying Kawasaki swan on a couple of occasions.

Section 1+2

Sections 1 and 2 were long, complex routes, with some steep drop offs. How I clean it twice is beyond me, but Terry only had one attempt, taking a flying leap over the bars. The trip to Neville Hall hospital later confirmed nothing was broken though he was bruised. More importantly, the gold plating on the Bantam was undamaged.

Section 3 was tight corners up through trees on a bank; plenty of grip but could manage the tight left-hander well, so best attempt was a 1.

The excellent section 10

Joel observed section 4, who’s largish step near the end did for me twice, Less said on this section the better. Saffron has section 5, through a muddy stream which I surprisingly cleaned twice and to prove it wasn’t family bribery I then 5’d on the last lap.

In the end, the results don’t matter in trials, honestly, so I’ve buried the link to them below. Many thanks to the Herefordshire Club to another great trial


The Merthyr Motor Club trials have an…

The Merthyr Motor Club Trials have a fearsome reputation for some and I do remember dropping 80+ points on my Gas Gas in Morlais Quarry. They are good riders and they do know how to put on a good trial, so it was no surprise when all others were cancelled under the Mayan pre-end-of-the-world deluge during the week, it was Merthyr that ran.

It was also the last round of the Welsh Twinshock Championship (which looking at the website, seemed be a contest between 3-4 riders) . Anyway, with enthusiastic text’s from Mark, I’d spent 10 minutes prepping the TY250 from its last outing (in August) and headed over on what was a relatively dry morning. More rain forecast however.

Grabbed some fuel and arrived at Glyn Mill to find Mark’s van marooned in the field and therefore decided to stay firmly parked on the track. Paid the £15 entry to find around 10 twinshocks on the course alongside 30 or so modern bikes competing on a 7 section, 4 lap and 3 route course. The (easiest) Sportsman route for me (and Mark and Kevin) and it was good to see that a lot of sections were laid out in the streams. Glyn Mill is a bit bleak in the rain (though it could be argued that there are bleaker, habitable, parts of Merthyr Tydfil, and the rain did duely arrive. Watching Rob Cobley and his pristine mini Majesty, taking a dive in the first section (started at number 5), followed by a Kevin failure, didn’t inspire confidence it what was to come.

Section 5, Rob Cobley comes a cropper

Managed to get through for a 3, followed by another on Section 6, where I’d opted for the tight-line following the drop-off and then struggled to get my foot off the badly positioned rear brake pedal. Another 3 in Dai Bedford’s section 7 (a classic streamway one) and I was resigned to a difficult afternoon. However it was nice to be proved wrong.

Managed to clean sections 1, 2 and 4 on each lap, with only a stupid 2 on the last lap of section 3 (which I think proved to be costly in the grand scheme of things). The couple of dabs here might have been caused by a flashback of me (and all the other riders) seeing Chris Bonds naked behind halfway up a tree on the way to the first section. I’ve deleted the photo evidence.

Nibb's Fantic

Back to the tricky section 5, and I then managed to clean it on each lap, excellent, but section 6 retained its mental block. Some mindgames from Mark, as he commented on my low score bring me certain victory in our mini championship. Dirty tactics.

Only bike issues were with Kevin’s chain on the new Honda ‘Metisse’ coming off a couple of times and him also suffering from a misfire (water in the carb). We also lent some spanners to Nibbs Adams and his 156cc Fantic so he could complete the clubman route. He was spied coming off in section 5 and he managed to collect up all the valuable bits falling off the Fantic en route.


Given the weather and that it was a combined modern and classic trial, it was a cracking (TMX speak) event and set out at the right level. Excellent fun, and proper trials.

Left fairly promptly as I’d promised to pick a kayaking friend up in Crickhowell and drop him back in Llangynidir after a rapid trip down the Usk (mad). Got back to the house to find a puddle of water in the kitchen and a bulge in the ceiling. The rain during the week had finally got into the house; bugger.

On the positive side, the results appeared on the Welsh Trials website. Managed to beat Mark and Kevin, and Rob Cobley based on most cleans. Makes a change from coming last.


Classic Off Road Show, Telford 2012

And it was bloody cold as I headed over the top from Bwlch to Tredegar to pickup Mark and Alan; -8 and lots of snow, so loaded up the van and headed towards Abergavenny. After nearly losing van and trailer on the A40 roundabout it was a steady drive up the motorway, arriving in Telford just before 8am.

Kevin as the advance party was already in situ and has reserved some space for us. On with the gloves to avoid hands sticking to cold swingarms and started the unloading. We seem to have brought more that usual, though the Belgian contingent were first on the seen, and acquired some MX250 exhausts and parts.

As business picked up, managed to find time to fire up the stove and cook a monster bacon and black pudding sandwich, and the constant cups of tea were keeping the hypothermia at bay. Good crowd around though and despite everything, probably busier than the last couple of years.

Artic conditions

Sold a few MX250, TY250 and other bits,which was all good. I’d take some money on the hunt for some deals, but which there were a couple of interesting things in the car park (incl a D175 I should have picked up), in general prices were a bit crazy. And not just CCM’s. I’m sorry Colin, but £7750 for Bultaco I think might be stretching it.

Beta twinshock ?

I also bought some parts from Keith Alderman from Motolink, as part of the plan to refresh the MX250 for next season (8 weeks ago) and some other parts. The inside halls were (unsurprisingly) busy and indeed warm. Mark, Alan and the others has also dived inside and with the arrival of the snow we decided to pack up outside.

Spent another hour inside, arranged for all the parts etc to be picked up and with reports of heavy snow in South Wales, decided to head off around 14h30.

Eye watering price ! And it's not a Honda

Now to the journey home. With reports from Kevin of numerous accidents on the M54, we headed to Bridgnorth and after stocking up with emergency supplies in Tesco Express, we headed over the Clee Hills on the B road to Ludlow.

With a careful approach downhill and a more aggressive one uphill, we got to Cleobury North no problem, however is usually with snow, it’s not the snow it is other drivers who are the problem. With a slow driver in front, we failed to make it up the last steep hill to Wheathill and 30 minutes of pushing (with help from Glyn Moses and carload) we got to the top and I headed off, leaving Mark and Alan a 10 minute walk up the hill.

After that, roads became easier down through Hereford, though conditions awful. Took 4 hours before I got back to Bwlch, where I somewhat keenly tackled the hill down to the house. Unpacked the trailer and dived into the house. Still shivering on Monday, after a pretty impressive epic day.

“Everyone will come back to do another trial”

Unlike the Gwent trial on Boxing Day, the weather was good (first sun in the area for a week) and it meant that around 40 people were there at the start. As well as the usual trials riders, there were quite a few of the local classic motocross riders out on various bikes. That the trial, set out by Mike and Paul, was able to accommodate them with a choice of two routes and it made a really good event.

The start at the Baskerville Hotel

There were 12 sections set out in the woods behind the hotel and with no observers, each group marked themselves as they went round. Whilst in the past I’ve been a bit cynical of this, it actually does work well with classic events, it is more sociable and people tend to be fair and honest.

The sections used the usual rocky streams (which change each year with the passage of water and mud) and the Standard (harder route) was cleanable (not by me, but I’m sure somebody did).

Probably dropped around 25 or so, with a silly 5 on section 2 being the big black mark of the day. Failing to clean Section 12 on each of the three laps was the mark taker, though getting up the three stream sections (sections 5-7) clean each time was good fun.

Jon Britton, TY175

Kevin’s comment as we were going round, that there was nothing stupid and it enabled everyone, including those out on there first trials to enjoy themselves (and come back another time) summed it up pretty well. Nice to see Rob Griffith’s out on his very original Ariel HT, not quite so trick as Nick Woolley’s but that really summed up how much fun the event was.

Chris Bond and his Bultaco

Given that Scrambles / Classic Motocross does have a closed season (unlike trials) this type of event makes sense and running a few more in the October to March period makes a lot of sense. Most classic scrambles clubs are AMCA so Gwent Classic and the Herefordshire Classic clubs are well placed to attract bored motocrossers and people new to trials.

Getting a classic trials bike is still the fraction of the cost of either a new (and depreciating all the time modern trials bike) or a classic motocross bike. It makes a lot of sense. There is also a sense of fun, after all there was no real prize, (like with most games of golf) but the sense of challenge and getting the bike out. Chris Bond’s Model 27 Bultaco is still going strong and it was there competing with all the others (wish I still had a TL125 to be honest)

All good fun !

Section 8

[1] The hotel is now catering for a lot of bike meets and weekends, and is potentially an excellent venue for a classic trial weekend (now there’s a thought) with accommodation enough, a good bar etc. The International Laverda’s Owners Club and (my dads’) Vintage Motorcycle Club, Berkshire section have used it.

Gwent Classic Boxing Day Trial

Gwent Classic

Boxing Day arrives and after a low-key Christmas (8 mile walk up and around Mynnyd Llangorse) off to Brynmawr for Gwent Classics annual trial.

Not ridden a trial for a while and part of the process of my recent house move had seen me ferrying the TY250 back down from Reading on a trailer with a van full of Belgian IKEA furniture. Therefore looking forward to the trial with some eagerness and some tinkering with the TY had seen it start easily and topped up with fuel for the first time in 6 months.

Fine sunny day in Brymawr

Reports from Tredegar (ie Mark) had reported on a new venue and an some interesting sections. Driving over the top from Llangynidir to Beaufort and the weather was crap. Brynmawr not much better and the wind driven rain was a feature of the day, as was the tempreture, more of a seasonable freshness.

Good enough turnout, not the 70+ of Christmases past, but 30 people with a good twinshock entry and a couple of pre-65’s. 10 sections and 3 laps on a small, but interesting piece of ground that sees some four-wheel drive activity.

The golf-style marking system for Gwent Classic trials I think tends to work okay and avoids the need to observers; there is no individual cheating, but you do get some discrepancies on the scoring between groups, mainly over interpretation of routes and the rules etc (back wheel or front wheel out etc).

Rode round with a complete twinshock group, Mark (Kawasaki KT250), Kevin (Honda 250 or something), Terry on trick TY175 Whitehawk and Byron on a stock TY175. All evenly matched, though not on the same sections. Started at section 2, which was short climb, with a more serious drop back down, followed by a run round a mound of logs and rubbish. Section 3 next to it had an interesting finish and need a bit of the right wrist to get out of the end cards.

Section 4 was my nemesis, with 3 straight 5’s. Why the TY didn’t like going down hill I’m sure, but fluffed it everytime, with 2 stalls. Less said the better.

Section 5 was fairly straightforward and needed some tightening up to make it interesting, as the climb out of a small boggy patch had plenty of grip. Section 6, round under a cliff, them up round over the top I did like, the TY gripping like a champion every time to get round clean. Not the same for the rest of the team.

Section 7 was a muddy set of turns, which I took a 3 on first lap and then cleaned for the next two laps. However, 8 was the challenge of the day and despite being eased, I only managed to get out of the end-cards using the 3rd gear, wall of death approach once. Good fun and the conditions made the section what it was.

Sections 9 and 10 were pretty straightforward and had been eased out a little too much, a tighter bottom turn in 9 would have made it much more fun as it happens.

The start at the Baskerville Hotel

I managed to drop 36 and given 15 were on Section 4 and 10 on Section 8, all-in-all not too bad on the rest of the course. Keven also dropped 36, with Mark and Terry something similar. Bryon won it (for our group) on the day with a 28.

An alright venue and probably worth going back there for a trial in future, Saturday afternoon bit of fun makes the most sense really !

No workshop and 2012 fixtures

Not a lot happening on the bike front, mainly due to lack of house and workshop, but should be resolved before Christmas. My hands have become clean over the last two months and apart from a quick fettle of the DT I’m getting withdrawl symptoms

I did go to the Welsh Championship meeting in Aberystywth a couple of weekends. Primary purpose was to ensure that both pre74 classes remain for the 2012 season and that the Championship included only one round per club and was spaced out over the season in a sensible manner.

Also, the AMCA dates meeting took place this last weekend and the provisional dates for 2012 are in the attached PDF (and in the following image)

|Mar|4| | | | | | |
| | 11| | | Pre65| Marks Tey | | |
| | 18| | | | | | |
| | 25 | 3 Counties | Ledbury | | | | |
| Apr | 1 | Llanthony | Hay on Wye | | | | |
| GF | 6 | | | | | | |
| | 8 | Devon Classic | TBA | | | | |
|BHl | 9 | Red Marley | | | | | |
| | 15 | Ross on Wye | Pontrilas | Pre65| Marks Tey | | |
| | 22 | Narberth | West Atherton | | | Euro | Schwiez |
| | 29 | Bath Classic | Yatton Keynel | | | | |
|May | 6 |Dartmouth|Totnes| Pre65 | Maylandsea | Teme Valley | Boraston |
| BH | 7 | Dartmouth | Totnes | | | | |
| | 13 | Mortimer | Theale | Mid Wales | Abbeycwmhir | | |
| | 20 | Kendal | Penrith | Teifiside | Cardigan | | |
| | 27 | Acorns | Nwcst u Lyme | Pre65 | Marks Tey | Euro | Deutschland |
| Jun | 3 | Dorset | Damerham | Chester | Chirk | | |
| | 4 | 3 Counties | Ledbury | | | | |
| |10 | West Midlands | Bromyard | | | Euro | Italia |
| |17| Border (16-17) | Chomondley| | | | |
| | 24 | Devon Classic | TBA | Pre65 | Marks Tey | | |
|Jul | 1 | Western Classic | Horsley | | | | |
| | 8 | | | | | | |
| |15 | Mortimer | Theale | | | | |
| | 21 – 22| Narberth | West Atherton | Dorset | Pencilwood | | |
| | 29 | Mid Wales | Abbeycwmhir | Pre65 | Gosfield | | |
| Aug | 5 | Bath Classic | Templecloud | | | | |
| | 12 | North Devon | Coombe Martin | | | | |
| | 19 | Kendal | Sedburgh | | | | |
| | 26 | Chester | Chirk | Pre65 | Maylondsea| | |
| |27 | | | | | | |
|Sept | 2 | Moseley | Hanbury | | | | |
| | 9 | Mortimer | Theale | Acorns | Newcastle u Lyme | | |
| | 16 | Mortimer| Goodwood | Teifiside | Cardigan | Classic Des Nations |Czech |
| | 23 | Llanthony | Llanthony | Dorset | Castle Kerry | Pre65 | Maylondsea |
| | 30 | Devon Classic | TBA | | | | |
| Oct | 7 | | | | | | |
| | 14 | | | Pre65 | Marks Tey | |
| | 21 | | | | | | |
| | 28 | | | | | | |
|Nov | 4 | | | Pre65 | Marks Tey | |

2012 fixtures

Both at the Welsh and AMCA meeting, the issue over low entries was discussed and whilst the potential is now there for a £20.00 addition charge for people who want enter on the day, the real issue is geography and catchment. Whilst the numbers were lower in West Wales, both Narberth and Teifiside are great events and I rode 4 times there last year.

Will be looking to choose wisely this coming year and trying to get in all the Welsh Championship rounds once they are confirmed.

Now to move house and work on the bikes for the 2012 season….

Llantony Classic Scramble and Helicopter Fair

Nicest venue in Wales ?

The last scramble of the year for me, (probably), with impending house move and work probably meaning I’ll miss the Chester and Devon events.

It’s got to be the best setting of the year and the track is great, with some excellent natural terrain. It’s got some great slopes and a brilliant straight up the hill from the start. Abbeycwmhir is probably a longer track and matches it for location, but maybe I’m biased.

Went down on Saturday for a couple of hours with the girls to help set up, with a mixed weather forecast for the weekend, with rain the main part of the menu.

And on the journey down on Sunday morning, rain it did. The small patch of blue sky above Llanthony itself provided a glimmer of hope, as we made our way up the lane from Llanvihangel Crucorney. The three bikes were on the trailer, with kids and kit in the van. The YZ was onboard as a back up bike for Mark, and the SC500 was back running after the PVL ignition had turned up in the post on the Friday (notes on performance and fitting in a separate article).

Mark and Alan had made it into the slick paddock, which was festooned with a range of plush campers, vans, Argos gazebos and unbounded enthusiasm for the days racing. After setting down the trailer, Sophie and I managed to cajoule the kids to get the gazebo up [Best purchase of the year from the [ ]] before the rain came again.

Got the 500 out for first practice and the omens were good. Pulled away from 2nd after the bottom jump and flew up the straight, pulling 3rd all the way. Still need to sort the clutch, which was dragging and the front brake was also a bit of a pull. Four laps of practice was great though and already impressed with ignition.

The 250 was less impressive as I managed 3 laps of practice. Handling wise it was great, but no power or pull. With the climbs and the long straight it was going to be a long afternoon on the lower capacity race.

Good to see Lester Hammond and his CZ back on the line and he managed to get away from me in the first race. The 250 performance was less than exceptional with no grunt up the back straight, needing a drop back into 2nd to get to the top corner. The last meeting of the season didn’t really come soon enough, as the MX is heading for rebuild and a possible rethink. Echoing some of the comments made by Gez Kane on his Classic Bike MX250 project, the gearbox was a bit all-over-the-place and the race was dominated by a lot of false neutrals.


I was still kicking the MX250 when the third race ended abruptly on the first lap, with a bike pile-up caused by Luke Hickie loosing his chain and other riders piling in. Red flag and subsequent St John’s treatment were followed up by the air ambulance to take Andy Davies to hospital for a broken collarbone. There were no road ambulances available it seems and even the police seemed to like the idea of a gentile ride up to Llanthony as a Sunday lunchtime diversion.

All this meant that there was an hour delay, so in good cricketing fashion, an early lunch was taken before resuming for race 4. Race 6 saw the SC500 down to the line, though the start was a mess-up with me stalling the bike after misjudging the tempremental clutch. However, managed to get past 4 bikes going up the hill and settled down to a good ride, finishing (I think) 5th behind Tony Hegarty, who’d I’d met in Oreye, Belgium.

The showers were still passing through and the tracked looked at it’s slickest during the twinshock race, and probably with the thought of the air ambulance foremost, people seemed to be taking it steady. With a slippery track, the lower-to-the-ground British and pre74 bikes seem to be quicker than the Twinshocks. Also noticeable was that the good riders were enjoying the conditions and as the day went on I also managed to adapt pretty well to some slippery corners.

After a much better start, I did take a slide in the second over 250cc race, letting Tony by for another 5th placed finish. I repeated this feat in the last race but this time missing a gear over the increasing rough section mid-way round the track.

The MX250 didn’t come out for the last race, as the lack of power and annoying gearbox had got the better of me. The 500 by contrast was great. It needs some work to make it easier to race and I do need to sort out the clutch. The PVL ignition kit doesn’t use the original external rotor, but uses a smaller internal rotor (without the woodruff key). It does feel considerably heavier than the 250 but this maybe down to suspension set up and the aim will be to combine 500 power into 250 handling during the closed season.

Postscript. This article was written whilst on a flight from Bristol to Malaga. All typos and grammatical errors can be attributed to the maturing Vicky Pollands’ whose endless, pointless chatting could have been used by Stelios to save 20% of the fuel costs for the flight. Their kids names seem to be Ella (a proper little women), Kelly, Tyler, Becca, Dan and indeed Vicky. Yeah, but no, but yeah…..